STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Let's talk more about the investigation into the killing of Renee Macklin Good by an ICE agent. We've called Anders Folk. He's a former U.S. attorney from Minnesota and current candidate for Hennepin County attorney. He's also a partner at the law firm Jones Day. Good morning, sir.
ANDERS FOLK: Hey, good morning.
INSKEEP: How common is it for the FBI to exclude local authorities from an investigation as they're doing here?
FOLK: It's certainly not common in Minnesota. Our longstanding practice here has been to use our state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. We often call that the BCA. In my experience, as a federal prosecutor, Steve, we always would get our best outcomes when we had our state BCA working as partners with federal law enforcement.
INSKEEP: Why would that be? Does the state have some capacity that the feds do not?
FOLK: There's certainly additional capacity by bringing in state agents, and I think what really, in Minnesota, at least, is the case, is that our state BCA, Steve, has really developed the subject matter expertise to do thorough investigations in these officer-involved shooting scenarios.
INSKEEP: How does the FBI approach in this investigation compare to the investigation of the murder of George Floyd a few years ago in Minnesota?
FOLK: Yeah, that's a good data point to look to. And, Steve, I can tell you, as somebody who was involved in that investigation and who signed the indictment of Derek Chauvin for violating George Floyd's civil rights, that was an investigation that was conducted by FBI agents, certainly, but there was also a thorough investigation conducted by our state BCA agents. And so this decision to exclude our state law enforcement agency from doing an investigation is a change of course.
INSKEEP: So what do you think about the FBI going it alone?
FOLK: Well, I think, you know, any investigation is striving not only to get to the bottom of what happened, but to build public trust and credibility and to show accountability in the outcome. And by excluding our state BCA, I think this is going to have a negative impact on the public's impression of what happened here.
INSKEEP: You know, so many of us have been looking frame by frame at the various videos of this shooting and asking, like, what do we know so far? What questions are still unanswered for us about the timeline and everything else? What questions are on your mind? I assume you've been looking at these videos, too.
FOLK: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, the reason we need an investigation, a thorough, impartial and nonpolitical investigation, is so that we can answer these questions in a way that's credible. I mean, I'm certainly curious about and want to find out what the autopsy report says. I think it's important to investigators to figure out whether the first shot, the second shot or the third shot that was fired in this instant was the shot that killed Miss Good, if we can figure that out. I think the fact that her cellphone was present in the car is going to obviously reveal potentially significant information that's important to making a determination in this case, interviewing agents who were present on the scene, reviewing evidence about what kind of training agents were given and what kind of training they were given about the use of force in situations involving cars. Data like that, information like that, is all critical in making a determination about what to do.
INSKEEP: I can imagine why, but why don't you make it explicit? Why does it matter whether the first, second or third shot killed her?
FOLK: Well, certainly, one issue here is going to be why the agent used deadly force. And to the extent the agent's positioned in front of the car during one shot versus on the side of the car, during other shots, that's going to be critical to determine whether there's a self-defense issue here and why the shots may have been fired.
INSKEEP: Can I ask about one other aspect of this? It has been very much on my mind, especially after the agent's own video, which is, I think, about 47 seconds is shown. And if memory serves, roughly the first 34 or 35 seconds, things are very tense. The agent is circling the car. There's a woman taunting the agent, but things are relatively calm. And then immigration agents very suddenly escalate the situation. New guys approach the scene rapidly, cursing and screaming - not screaming, but saying profanely, get out of the car, get the F out of the car. The driver appears to move the car - maybe panicking, I don't know. And then suddenly there are gunshots. That all happens in a second or two. Did the agents escalate the situation, in your view, in a way that is notable or important to understand?
FOLK: I think, certainly, everybody's interactions at the scene are important to making a determination about what happened here and whether it was lawful or not and whether or not charges are appropriate. And so I think in a case like this, where events happened very quickly, it just highlights the need for a thorough investigation. And I can tell you, having done these investigations as a federal prosecutor, it is important to have all the facts at your disposal so that you can make the right decision when you're trying to analyze what happened and why and whether or not a crime was committed.
INSKEEP: It made me wonder that even if we find out that the agent was legally justified and there's a lot of latitude for law enforcement, there may have been an opportunity to de-escalate that situation that was missed. What do you think?
FOLK: I think that's one of the facts that's really important. And again, one of the types of facts that an investigation is going to be required to determine.
INSKEEP: Anders Folk is the former acting U.S. attorney from Minnesota, current candidate for Hennepin County attorney. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.
FOLK: Thanks, Steve. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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