MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Let's turn to a physician who previously served as the CDC's chief medical officer. Dr. Debra Houry worked for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for more than a decade. She resigned in August, along with some other colleagues in protest of Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy's changes at the agency, later testifying before a Senate panel that Kennedy was, quote, "censoring science." And she's with us now. Dr. Houry, good morning.
DEBRA HOURY: Good morning.
MARTIN: You just heard our colleague Rob Stein describe this chaotic meeting. I know you watched it also. What did you make of it?
HOURY: You know, it's disappointing and really concerning when, you know, lives are at stake, and this is about vaccines. And this committee met in September and couldn't get their act together and postponed it to December. So surely, you know, over three months, they should know what they're voting on and the evidence, or they shouldn't be having these discussions.
MARTIN: There's been a lot of criticism of this panel of advisers - their credentials or their lack thereof - including from at least one Republican. Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana on X Thursday called the committee, quote, "totally discredited." And I do want to mention Cassidy's also a physician. Do you share his opinion?
HOURY: Yeah. You know, when you look at the ACIP members - the Immunization Practice Committee members - usually they are, you know, pediatricians, people with vaccine science, pharmacologists. Many of these people don't have that deep science background. And when you looked at the presenters yesterday, what was unusual is usually you have CDC scientists really getting deep into the data. Instead, you had people, including two that had a retracted paper on autism, presenting on vaccine safety who aren't vaccine-safety scientists.
MARTIN: I noted that you posted a piece on Time this morning on their website saying that Congress really needs to step in here, but what could they do?
HOURY: Yeah. They could do a few things, not just around the vaccine committee, but CDC continues to hire political appointees. There are now over 14 of them with no career scientists in the office of the director. I left a hundred days ago, and there are still no career scientists really providing any direction. If you look at oversight over things like the vaccine committee meeting, they could ensure that the committee's following processes like posting documents and data in advance of the committees. You know, ensuring the vote language is open to the public, ensuring good representation. So Congress could do a lot.
MARTIN: So just getting back to the question of vaccines, the CDC can choose not to follow the panel's recommendations, but if it does follow them, what are you most concerned about? - this recommendation against vaccinating all newborns again - against hepatitis B.
HOURY: Yeah. And, you know, the CDC could choose not to follow them, but the acting CDC director is RFK's deputy secretary, and the secretary could, of course, choose to do what he wants. So I would believe that whatever the vaccine committee does, CDC and the department will follow. But if, you know, they decide not to allow this shot at two months, they're taking the choice away from parents. Parents should be able to decide to protect their own newborns from lifelong liver disease. So I would be concerned if they take that choice away.
MARTIN: So if parents are concerned and want to opt into the vaccine, can they do that?
HOURY: It'll depend on the vote. If they say shared decision-making, then parents would still be able to do it. If they say only if you are positive for hepatitis, then that choice is taken away. And parents should have that right to protect their kids. We already know, you know, that thousands and thousands of liver diseases were averted when the hepatitis vaccine began being given at birth to everybody 'cause there's household exposures, nail clippings, like, all sorts of things that can expose a newborn even if the mom doesn't have hepatitis. So this is about protecting babies and giving parents the choice to do that.
MARTIN: That's Dr. Debra Houry. She's the former chief medical officer for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. She resigned in August. Doctor, thank you so much for sharing these insights with us.
HOURY: Thank you.
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