As President Trump's state visit to the United Kingdom begins, demonstrations that took place in the streets of London have pointed to a fraught political moment for the island nation.
Those protests have included a sea of flags carried by participants — both of the St. George's Cross and the Union flag, which some say has been adopted by the far-right.
Many waved the flag of England - white with a red cross - which has been associated with the far right. but they also waved the flag of the United Kingdom - the Union Jack - which has not.
One of the many Brits who watched that big march in London last weekend was Clive Lewis, a member of Parliament affiliated with the left-leaning Labour party.
Lewis has spent plenty of time thinking about what it means to be British and what it means to wave the Union Jack. He grew up in Northampton, with an English mother and a father from Grenada, in the Caribbean.
Lewis joined All Things Considered host Mary Louise Kelly on Tuesday to share his thoughts on the current state of his country.
This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Interview highlights
Mary Louise Kelly: What was top of mind for you as you watched [the protest]? I saw estimates of 150,000 people on the streets of London for a march organized by the hard-right activist Tommy Robinson.
Clive Lewis: I think, like many other people, I expected a smaller demonstration of what you would call the hardcore — the kind of hardened Tommy Robinson supporters.
It was massive. I think for a lot of people watching that, your immediate response is, "Is this 200,000 hardened racists and fascists marching in the streets of London?"
And I sat in my window and I looked down into the crowd. And there were people who maybe — with the banners they were holding — fit that description.
But many of them just seemed to be people that I recognize — people I grew up with, people I live next door to. That actually was more terrifying.
I actually had a good school friend who messaged me to say, "I'm on the march."
He's white English. I'm mixed heritage. And I was like, "What are you doing on this march?" And he was like, "I'm here. I want to be listened to. I want to feel proud of my country again."
Now, I know he's a great guy. He's one of my best mates and he's got Black family that look like me. And he was on the march. So that immediately reinforced the view that, OK, this is a lot more complex. You can't just put all of these people into a box now.
There are people who may be on a trajectory towards a harder right-wing kind of perspective, but actually they're not there yet.
Kelly: You posted after the march, about the extent to which British institutions like railways or the health system, the NHS, how they've been hollowed out and it leaves people feeling disconnected, feeling powerless. Say more.
Lewis: MP Nigel Farage is our equivalent of Donald Trump, in some ways, politically. And I have noticed as of late that this is someone who basically champions big oil. He champions wealth. He champions low tax.
But I've noticed as of late, even he has begun — as did Donald Trump before the last election — started talking about what people would call a kind of far more socialist kind of rhetoric and language about the economy in some areas where things aren't working.
There are areas where he understands that people are angry with the status quo. They're angry with how their economy has been hollowed out, the health care system and all of these things. Now, people are increasingly skeptical, increasingly saying, "I don't trust you."
They feel marginalized and they feel unlistened to. And the first people out of the block to say, "We hear you and we're going to change that" are the right.
Kelly: I was reading that the rally over the weekend here was organized in part to honor the American conservative activist Charlie Kirk, who was shot and killed last week. As you watch, from this side of the Atlantic, events playing out in America, including the very partisan debate that has followed Kirk's death, anything resonate for you?
Lewis: I think it's very similar. We're maybe a few years behind you. I don't think we're as deeply divided as you yet. I think the division of — particularly in wealth and power is starker in the United States, but we're catching up rapidly.
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