A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
All right, let's get a view from Ukraine on this. Dmytro Kuleba was Ukraine's foreign minister from 2020 to 2024. So, Foreign Minister, do you believe anything is different today after yesterday's meeting?
DMYTRO KULEBA: Well, one thing is clearly different. We avoided a clash between President Trump on the one hand and President Zelenskyy and other European leaders on the other hand. That's good news that they had a constructive conversation. But when it comes to substance, to meaningful and tangible outcomes of the meeting, everything is very vague. And there is more, I would say, fog than clarity on possible parameters of future agreement.
MARTÍNEZ: I was going to ask you how you thought President Zelenskyy did, considering that the February meeting in the White House did not seem to go well. But if that is the most hopeful you are, Foreign Minister, I mean, that seems like it's bare bones in terms of hopefulness that something can resolve itself any time soon.
KULEBA: Well, a long journey starts with the first step. And I was pretty certain that this meeting would go well because back in February, both sides went too far. And they both realized that afterwards. But it's very important that the idea of a meeting between leaders is still open. It's very important that there will be follow-up conversations on what security guarantees may look like. To be honest, it's very hard to imagine what kind of security guarantees will be put in place to deter Russia from further invasions. But still this conversation is important. But again, as I said, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah.
KULEBA: And in this particular case, nothing has been agreed yet.
MARTÍNEZ: Right.
KULEBA: It's just a conversation, an important one.
MARTÍNEZ: And all anything can do is just imagine what those security guarantees might be because no concrete details have really been put out there. But I'm wondering if, indeed, as President Trump says, a meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin happens next, can a peace deal happen without a ceasefire?
KULEBA: That will be very hard to imagine, but we should always reserve some space for the magic of diplomacy. But what President Putin is trying to achieve, he has repeatedly stated that he wants to remove the causes of the conflict. And although he claims that one of the key causes is Ukraine's aspiration to become a member of NATO, this is not entirely true. His real cause is the existence of Ukraine's statehood and because he wants to dismantle Ukraine as a nation.
And as long as he will not change this goal from unlimited to limited, as long as he does not abandon this goal, there will be a war of a certain level of intensity. There may be ceasefires, and they will be broken. But we need a decision that will clearly make Putin understand that the goal of dismantling Ukrainian statehood is unattainable for him. Then peace will come.
MARTÍNEZ: How likely is that, though, that he would abandon this goal, considering that it's seemingly been a belief of his even before Russia invaded Ukraine back in 2022?
KULEBA: Well, that's the most difficult question to ask. It's even more complicated than how potential security guarantees may look like. We should build a construction around Ukraine, a security and political construction whereas it will be accepted as part of the West and Putin will have to accept the fact that Ukraine does not belong to his sphere of influence anymore. Is this possible? Yes. Can you achieve that with one or two decisions? No. It must be a network, a complex of decisions that will build this wall between Ukraine and Russia, and we will be living our lives separately.
MARTÍNEZ: Does the timeline matter for you right now, considering it seems like there's momentum happening? Is that something that's tangible, or at this point it's been already so long that who cares how long it takes?
KULEBA: Listen, I live in Ukraine. And I experience all the drone and missile attacks together with my compatriots. And, trust me, there is nothing that you want more than for all of this to end as soon as possible because it's a nightmare. It's a daily nightmare. But we know what we are fighting for. And we will keep fighting if this is the only option that we are left with.
MARTÍNEZ: Dmytro Kuleba is a former foreign minister of Ukraine. Thank you very much for your thoughts on this. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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